Episode 141: What do Fibromyalgia, CFS, Lyme, and Long Haulers Have in Common? with Dr. Bruce Patterson

We have seen many chronic illnesses over the years and many are difficult to treat and sometimes impossible to cure. CV has forced medicine to think outside the box. Dr. Bruce Patterson has not only used technology to prove long haulers exist but has found similar patterns in chronic Lyme, fibromyalgia, and CFS. As a practitioner, I have been looking for new technologies to apply to these conditions for decades. Some work great, others do not so well. With this new technology we can now identify what is causing the issue and we KNOW which medications to prescribe to greatly improve the condition. 

Do not miss these highlights:

04:21 – Dr. Patterson draws similarities between this pandemic and others that he has dealt with in the past.

07:23 – Vaccines are the be all and end all that people want them to be.  Focus needs to be put on the treatment.

08:53 – Similarities between the inflammatory markers between chronic Lyme, Fibromyalgia and COVID.

11:59 – There have been similarities in treating post Lyme, MECFS, and post-vaccination long haulers.

16:14 – We have to look at enhancing the immune system without over stimulating it

18:30 – The fact that we are not using precision medicine the way it should be with Covid and the fact that healthcare is using hospitalization as a biomarker for treatment

25:20 – Healthcare is not looking at alternate or similar diagnosis as Covid so people with issues are being left untreated because “it is not covid”.

30:08 – People are taking the CV vaccine as a cure to post lyme disease but this is too soon to determine its long term effects.

32:04 – A look at what incelldx.com is doing and how you can be tested through them.

Resources Mentioned

What if you could improve your health & increase your productivity? Find out how with the Vibrant Female Coaching Program at https://vibrantfemale.com/traning

About our Guest:

Dr. Bruce Patterson received his undergraduate training in molecular biology from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. He then went on to Northwestern University Medical School for training in medicine. During the early stages of the AIDS epidemic, Dr. Patterson began investigating cellular reservoirs of HIV-1 using molecular and in situ technology patented in his laboratory. 

Dr. Patterson went on to a residency in Pathology focusing on viral pathogenesis. While in his residency, Dr. Patterson determined that enough HIV virus was present in infected individuals to account for the massive destruction of the immune system. This paradigm altering work was published in Science in 1993. Dr. Patterson later was named Chief Resident of Pathology at Northwestern Memorial Hospital. Dr. Patterson has authored over 100 manuscripts and book chapters and he continues his work on HIV-1 pathogenesis and reservoirs at Stanford University School of Medicine. Dr. Patterson was the Medical Director of Diagnostic Virology at Stanford University Hospitals and Clinics.

https://twitter.com/brucep13

https://twitter.com/incelldx

https://incelldx.com/

https://covidlonghaulers.com/

https://www.facebook.com/incelldx/

https://twitter.com/incelldx

https://www.linkedin.com/company/incelldx/

Transcription for Episode #141:

Debra Muth 0:02
Welcome to Let’s Talk Wellness Now I’m your host, Dr. Deb. This is where we talk about everything wellness, and learn to defy aging and live our lives on our own terms. Hey, welcome back. I’m your host, Dr. Deb, this is Let’s Talk Wellness Now and this is November 11 2021, where we are broadcasting about treatment and testing for CB long hollers, fibromyalgia, Lyme myalgic encephalitis chronic fatigue syndrome, ME/CFS. This is some cutting edge research by my guest, Dr. Bruce Patterson, who is showing patterns for us of what inflammatory markers are elevated in these conditions, they are a little bit different. And better yet, we’re talking about what our treatment options for these conditions are going to be over the next couple of years. So for people who have suffered from fibromyalgia, chronic Lyme, chronic encephalitis, there have been very few treatment options available for them. Aside from antibiotics and some herbs, some have done well, some haven’t. It’s been a really trying time for people who have suffered from these conditions. Dr. Patterson has come up with some great testing and some interesting treatment options that we are embarking on into the new ages. So my guest, Dr. Patterson received his undergraduate training in molecular biology from the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. And then he went on to Northwestern University Medical School for training in medicine. And during the early stages of AIDS epidemic, Dr. Patterson began investigating cellular reservoirs of HIV one using molecular and insight to technology patented in his laboratory, Dr. Patterson went on to do a residency in pathology focusing on viral pathogenesis. And while he was in residency, he determined that enough HIV virus was present in infected individuals to account for massive destruction of the immune system. The paradigm altering the work was published in Science of 1993. Later, Dr. Patterson became chief resident of path the pathology at Northwestern Memorial Hospital. And He has authored over 100 manuscripts and book chapters, and he continues his work on HIV one pathogenesis and reservoirs at Stanford University School of Medicine. He is also the medical director of diagnostic virology at Stanford University Hospitals and Clinics. So this is the doctor’s doctor right? If anyone understands the immune system, it is Dr. Patterson and we are going to have a very open conversation about what we’re seeing with the immune system with CV and long haulers and post CV vaccine injury. And this is going to be a great conversation to share with your friends and colleagues. So let’s get started.

Debra Muth 3:16
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Debra Muth 4:42
Welcome back. I have my guest, Dr. Bruce Patterson with me. Welcome to the show.

Bruce Patterson 4:47
Thank you. It’s my pleasure.

Debra Muth 4:49
So Dr. Patterson, tell us how you got involved in looking at science and research and immune system.

Bruce Patterson 4:57
Well, I’m a viral pathologist by trade And I started out, you know, right in the fire in the late 80s and early 90s, doing research on HIV and being a virologist, you know, it was really my first, you know, my first pandemic. So you know, now this is almost my fifth pandemic since since then. And there’s a lot of similarities. But the bottom line is I got involved in viral pathology, how viruses caused disease, it was I and I, NIH funded research and how HIV got transmitted both the babies and and tpo women. And of course, that was an intimate relationship between virus and immune system. And actually, in the early days of HIV, the immunologist never spoke to the virologist. And I think I was, I was in the middle, thankfully, because I, there was two sides of the equation. And that’s absolutely true in in COVID, were in the begnning the disease virologic and then it very quickly morphs into an immune pathogenesis disease. And of course, we all know about the cytokine storm, etc, and what that can do in terms of damage and the interplay between the different arms of the immune system, the innate immune system, which is against pathogens that we’ve never seen before, which is where COVID fits. And then later on adaptive immunity, and cell mediated immunity, antibody based immunity, those are all topics that are on the tip of our tongues now with COVID. And I tell people that as much as HIV started the molecular revolution in medicine is especially in cancer. I think COVID really starting a new revolution in immunologic medicine, of course, that encompasses COVID, post Lyme, fibromyalgia, MECFS, and other post infectious conditions, even autoimmunity, which we’ve, you know, we’re we may have to revisit based on some of our discoveries.

Debra Muth 7:17
That’s a great story. What kind of similarities Have you seen from the HIV world to the COVID world?

Bruce Patterson 7:23
Well, again, it’s the similarities are that we have a virus that mutates readily, and the the issues that arise because of me, there’s there’s never been an HIV vaccine. There’s never been HIV neutralizing antibodies. And the same can be said, for hepatitis C, which is another highly mutable virus where we don’t have a vaccine. We don’t have, we don’t have neutralizing antibodies. But what we do have are very effective treatments. And so I, you know, I just got back from speaking at the International COVID summit in Rome in September. And really, the basis of the meeting was that we we cannot lose sight of the fact that we need effective treatments. Vaccines are helping us and of course, they have to evolve as well. It’s not the end all be all, we really can’t take our eyes off of the fact that potent therapeutics can play a very significant role in in, you know, solving this pandemic.

Debra Muth 8:39
Are you seeing a lot of similarities as far as inflammatory markers between all of these diseases, or they’re very specific ones that stand out between chronic Lyme and fibromyalgia and COVID?

Bruce Patterson 8:54
Well, you know, as you know, we have, our program has over 12,000 long haulers are long COVID. We have 1000, postvaccination, long haulers, we probably have 500, posts line 100 200, MECFS, probably 50 to 100 fibromyalgias just and you know, having looked at their immune profiles, with our machine learning and AI, we are seeing very distinct signatures and we’re actually putting that together for a publication in all of those conditions. So that we can show that here conditions that actually have very similar symptoms, brain fog, you know, fatigue, post exertional malaise. They have a very, very common symptom complex and, and and yet they have similarities in their immune abnormalities. But there are also some distinctions. For instance, fibromyalgia, you almost always see interleukin six and interleukin eight, which you don’t commonly see in long COVID. And like you, you know, and then there’s other patterns where, in long COVID and postvaccination, long COVID, you almost always see CCl5 which is Randy’s the soluble CD40 ligand, which is a measure of a view of, of, of activated platelets, which could cause clotting. So I mean, IncellDX has been had this panel for over a year now, we’ve been talking about clotting, for a year, certain papers come out and say, “Oh, what about clotting?” It’s just something that’s in our, you know, in our been in our daily lives for for over a year. But yes, there are similarities, but they’re very subtle differences. And that’s what we’re trying to parse out of this picture of post infectious immunologic conditions.

Debra Muth 11:01
Do you think that as we find some of the distinct differences, we’ll be able to identify better treatments for each specific thing? Or are all the treatments going to be fairly similar? Because they have a similar profile of inflammatory markers?

Bruce Patterson 11:16
Well, you know, it’s interesting, because people think that we kind of use the same thing in our program, and, and, you know, we do because we have some, you know, some very powerful combinations that have been highly, highly successful. But, you know, each patient is different. And and found is actually an approach where we know, we have probably an armamentarium of maybe 12, to 14 repurposed drugs that are already FDA approved. And we know what their effects are on certain cytokines and cytokine profiles. And so we’re using that knowledge to tailor therapy on a patient by patient basis. And we have found similarities with treating post Lyme, MECFS, postvaccination, long haulers, for instance. Post Lyme, we’ve gotten tremendous results in in patients who have been sick for years. I mean, long COVID, you know, these patients are sick for, you know, many, many months, some up to a year and a half now. But the the, the lyme patients are suffering even longer some and years. Yeah. You know, we had one post Lyme patient we put on our therapy, and in five days, he was able to swim for the first time in 10 years, and I just couldn’t believe it. And and we’ve had we’ve ever had really good success treating post Lyme and, and post vaccination, it’s two drugs, maraviroc and pravastatin. And these patients universally get better in two to four weeks. So they’re almost easier to treat them than long COVID because number one, I think most of them at a shorter course. But they seem to respond much quicker than long COVID does.

Debra Muth 13:16
Do you see a place where maybe this could be used in some of the kids that have been vaccine injured with autism or you know, brain encephalitis, things like that? It would that be an option for some of those parents to see what’s happening for them as well.

Bruce Patterson 13:32
We’re not there yet. I do help manage many of these kids. Some of them have the pan’s or the pandas, you know, and the pathogenesis is just very, very complicated. And, you know, they’ve, they’ve tried IVIG they’ve tried rituximab. And then, you know, I’ve had several where it’s a conundrum because they have a chronic, one of the chronic herpes viruses that cause chronic fatigue like EBV or CMV, or are varicella Herpes Simplex even and then when you immunosuppressed them to make their, you know, their pans or pandas or deactivate, and then you get into this vicious cycle of reactivation inflammation. -ology and it’s very difficult to break that condition, but I think a lot of our work in long COVID With immune modulators like the CCR five antagonists, maraviroc, and in another drug called the [unclear], which we did some initial acute trials on a COVID. This is an exciting new class of drugs that modulate the immune system without immuno suppressing and You know, that is absolutely critical because, you know, there’s widespread use of dexamethasone, steroids in acute COVID. And we don’t know what the long term implications of that are, is on, you know, whether or not that allows a reservoir to be established before reservoir to be established a virus, you know, again, our discovery of the s1 protein remaining and monocytes, in the absence of viral nucleic acids, in the absence of viral replication is a very unique mechanism that may have implications in other immune based diseases. But, you know, we’re, we’re learning so much about immunology, and from from, you know, this from from the pandemic, but we have to start thinking about, you know, getting away from this, you know, this immunosuppressive is to prevent damage. [unclear] and think about exactly what it is we want to irrigate, or perturb and do that much more specific way.

Debra Muth 16:14
I love that idea of being able to look at it and say, Okay, we’re not going to suppress the immune system, because that’s never a good outcome, right. But if we can enhance it without over stimulating it, and having it attack another part of the body, and we can get it to actually fix things, that that’s such a huge benefit for us.

Bruce Patterson 16:31
That is a huge benefit. I mean, again, I’ve had great success treating varicella or shingles with a good antiviral plus steroids. I mean, that makes sense. Because this, you know, the, the, you’re actually on a antiviral that’s effective. So giving us steroids to prevent the tissue damage or the nerve damage. Makes sense, right? The problem is we don’t have good antivirals to combine with the immunosuppressive so we’re just nakedly giving immunosuppressive drugs. Since have effective, you know, antiviral treatment, not to mention all we’re sampling is the nose. In fact, you know, there’s probably virus still replicating in lungs virus replicating and in endothelial cells, virus replicating and in, in white blood. So I mean, it’s, there’s, there’s, there’s a lot more to the puzzle than just doing a nasal swab. And I think that’s one of the other issues.

Debra Muth 17:33
You know, and it’s interesting, like, people get upset that we don’t have all the answers, right. But this is a new virus, it’s different than anything we’ve ever dealt with. It’s manmade. And we don’t necessarily know what it’s going to do. But we’re starting to see that this idea that antibodies go away in three months is not correct. Like, I’ve tested people 15 months out, 18 months out now, and they still have antibodies, they still have S1 and S2 antibodies. I had a guy I just tested the other day who had the vaccine has never been sick, isn’t sick. And his IgM antibodies were positive, his IgG antibodies were positive. And we were sitting there going, Okay, what is going on here? And he was trying to decide, does he do the booster? Or does he have enough immunity? And we’re like, Okay, this doesn’t this whole picture doesn’t make any sense at all. So people, you know, people that are listening to us have to understand that this is a new thing for all of medicine. We’re trying to figure all this out. And it doesn’t follow the straightaway patterns that we once thought it would.

Bruce Patterson 18:32
Well, it’s not just new, it’s you know, and I think other immunologists, and pathologists agree with me, it’s also one of the most complicated viruses we’ve ever seen. In Rome. I called it a chameleon. I mean, because it’s, it’s different than everybody. Yeah. There’s some strategies we can deploy. But you know, what the fact is, we are not using precision medicine the way we should be with this disease. I try and manage acute COVID patients in the hospital from, you know, and the fact is, they’re doing the same old, same old and it feels like February of 2020. Yeah, there’s nothing new. And they’re unwilling to listen to even somebody who’s who’s worked on this for a long time published, we’ve probably published 10 papers in the last, you know, nine months about, you know, what’s going on immunologically, and how to potentially treat this with repurposed drugs, and no one will listen. And, you know, the fact is, we’re in a pandemic, and we really need to think outside the box. And the system is not allowing us to think outside the box, or else be creative with, with therapeutics, you know, statins, for instance, which are, you know, millions and millions and millions of people take relatively benign You know, there’s a great paper on the effects of statins and acute COVID is like, how hard is it to put somebody in the hospital, you know, who’s hospitalized on statins? And, you know, and then you know, I’m sitting here at this conference and somebody’s talking about, well, if we hospitalized them, then we do this. And I stood up and said, You know what? hospitalizations not a biomarker. Right. physician about well, we’ll do this. If they’re not in the hospital, they go into hospital, we’re going to do this. Right. I like this. When did hospitalization become a biomarker? Yeah, not using biomarkers. And we have this great panel that that that we developed at IncellDX, has a long haul or index severity score. I think another group from Boston also came up with a combination of cytokines that predicted severity. When you talk to somebody in the hospital who’s managing a patient with acute COVID, they have no idea where they are on the immunologic spectrum. And that’s a broad immunologic spectrum. No predictive mark. I mean, there’s 30 papers on interleukin six, and its prognostic significance in acute COVID. You know, and you, excuse me, you would think that every hospital would have a point of care test, six, or at least be able to do it in the hospital. And that’s a send out, they’ll take, you know, a week to get the results back. Are you kidding me? And then they’re relying on the tests that, you know, CRP, D dimer, sed rate test that in the clinical laboratory, we used to just shake our heads. They were the most nonspecific tests on the planet, you know, they were normal, and they should be abnormal. They were abnormal, and they should be normal. You know what, but that was all they had. I mean, CRP is supposedly a surrogate for interleukin six, but there’s nothing better than just an interleukin six, right? Or some combinations of cytokines, like I said, like our severity score, which has interleukin six, interleukin 10, VEGF, some other markers in there, then when you have it up, you know where they are in this spectrum of immune disease. And how about knowing where they are? Are they going to get better, are they not going to get better, it also helps you deploy resources. But we’re not using that. If this were cancer, no one would put anybody on a drug, unless there was a complete mutational analysis. And you before you gave the drug that that patient was that tumor was going to respond. Right? That is how we have to think, in both acute COVID. And we are thinking that way, in long COVID We’re being driven by the precision diagnostics and techniques that we’ve that we’ve developed. But you know what, it’s got to be used for acute COVID because it’s not going away. And it’s not. And so we have no idea when patients go into the hospital to get admitted, we have no idea where they are immunologically. And you know, what in the patients that we did save during the trials and under EIND in, you know, the early 2020s there was there was a theme that was important in these patients leaving the hospital, and that is restore the immune system to normal and give them time. Yeah, and you know, what, the hospitals don’t know where their immune systems are. And they certainly don’t have the time to give patients to recover, because they and they will recover. I mean, we got five or six patients, even on ECMO, which is lung bypass 30 some patients off of ventilators. But it’s all because we were looking at 150 Different biomarkers, we knew when they were getting better we could we could give the physicians a, you know, a timeline, you know, who you know, for ventilator support. And, you know, and ensure enough some of these patients walk in our hospitals, um, you know, and I’m getting Christmas cards from them and shown these patients and kids I mean, all these, all these great things that we we did and in February and March 2020. And, and really you look into hospitals now and nothing’s really changed. Yeah. Prone position, which agreed it does help. You know, there’s really nothing else on top of that.

Debra Muth 24:48
No, it seems like as soon as somebody gets a COVID diagnosis, we shut off our brains to everything else that’s possible. I had a young gal go to the hospital this weekend. with pneumonia, she was diagnosed with pneumonia. But she also tested positive for COVID. And they said, Well, you have COVID Go home, didn’t treat the pneumonia didn’t give her anything and just sent her home. And I’m just like, how did we get to this place where, just because there’s a single diagnosis, everything else that we know to be true to treat has gone out the window?

Bruce Patterson 25:20
Oh, I, you know, I absolutely agree with that. I mean, it’s like, Oh, thank God, it’s not COVID, you know, but, you know, it’s parainfluenza or to adenovirus, or influenza B in the summer influenza A now is going to start rearing its head and, and then my wife, came home with February 2020. And she had had a COVID test. But luckily, she did one of these tests, that was a panel that included other seasonal viruses, which is what I think people should be giving because of the epidemiology of what else is out there at a time when some of them pair influenza mimics COVID, almost completely, you know, you’re dead, tired, fatigue, shortness of breath, not a huge fever, you almost feel like you could go to work, but you can’t go tired. I mean, everybody in a brother thinks it’s COVID. But it’s para influenza. So we’re not looking for something else, or you know, you know, strep, or, you know, epstein barr, what have you. And they’re just saying, Oh, thank God, it’s not COVID. Well, it doesn’t mean you have to have something else, then the worst thing of all is, especially with long-, you know, amongst long haulers is you’re saying, Oh, I have a relapse? Yeah. And, you know, I’m like, No, you don’t ever relapse, you don’t have any S1 protein, your cytokines are normal, you have parent influenza, right, which is identical. So, you know, what? It’s, you know, it’s there’s all kinds of, you know, confusion and misinformation that’s out there, right now that I think the most important thing that we can do as clinicians is to try and straighten it out, just shut it down. Like, for instance, a lot of long COVID patients are getting monoclonal antibodies. Like, you know, I’m a replicating virus, why would you take monoclonal antibodies, I had to, they had to go to the ER, because the monoclonal antibodies, you know, it’s a disaster, just like, there was a newspaper report in, I would say, January or February 2021. It said, patients with long COVID get better after vaccination? Well, they don’t 80% of our patients get worse, which I’ve managed them through that, and maybe they feel the ones that feel better feel better for a couple of days, and then they revert back to, to where they were, well, it’s no different with monoclonal antibodies, you’re just skipping the step of that S1 being converted into antibodies in the body. So you’re basically mainlining you know, the antibodies that are causing the problems with the vaccine into patients who don’t have any replicating virus. And, you know, it’s a placebo effect, I have no idea what’s in those formulations. But then there’s people who, who have postvaccination, long haulers, like I got the monoclonal antibodies, and I feel so much better. And I’m saying you never had the virus, right? Better. It can only be a placebo. I mean, it’s this stuff is, is all over the place. And then of course, this A phoresis, where this someplace in Germany where they take your blood filter, and you know, have long COVID I mean, we had a guy, you had to go to a absolutely an ICU in Germany, after this procedure calling same begging us to put them back on the protocol, we have a man which got him back to 90%, of where he was, and then ended up in the, in the ICU. In Germany, it’s back to the States because back to our protocol, you just sent a picture of him in the gym lifting, you know, massive, free weights, you know, so, the bottom line is, you know, IncellDX developed, you know, precision diagnostics, precision medicine, therapies, directed exactly at the pathogenesis. And, you know, it’s working, you know, and that’s variable in different people, you know, we’re not the fountain of youth, so you’re not gonna feel like you went to a spa, you know, after suffering for 15 months with long COVID, but you know, what your functional and you can, you can step up your exercise, and you’re, you’re on the road to to, you know, back to normal life. So, you know, it’s It’s been a challenge. But like I said, this is the most complicated virus and disease I’ve ever seen.

Debra Muth 30:08
Wow, we’ve seen some in the Lyme community to people who said, all of my Lyme symptoms completely reversed after I got the COVID vaccine, it’s the cure for Lyme. And those of us who treat Lyme are just sitting here going, maybe short course, but the bottom is going to fall out of that, and you’re going to be sick again. And so in the Lyme community, people have been telling everyone to get the vaccine for that reason. And we’re just like, oh, this is going to be ugly on the backside, this is going to make a bigger disease that we don’t know how to treat,

Bruce Patterson 30:37
All you have to do is look at the science. So in our latest paper on S one persistence in monocytes, in long COVID And that causing vascular inflammation, when we look through the literature, I mean, Borrelia does the same thing. So Borrelia, the Borrelia, peptidoglycan and the Borrelia cell wall are phagocytized by and or engulfed by intermediate nonclassical monocytes, which then circulate with this, you know, partial Borrelia protein all over the body and cause inflammation, including in the brain, and, you know, in bind to blood vessel epithelium, and in fact, those are the markers we see in lying the the CCL five, or Rantis soluble CD 40 ligand and betcha. That pattern that we see in long COVID We see in in Lyme, commonly in post Lyme, we’ll also see, again, sort of aisle six, rearing a turret head or an eight, but again, same medications, take care of those as well. So I’m with you on that. And you know what, I think, you know, I think we are really starting to get to the heart of what’s causing these, these post pathogen immune conditions.

Debra Muth 32:05
Well, and it’s even better that you guys are able to find medications that can help people, because even though we have a diagnostic test, if we don’t know what we can do for it, okay, we have better information, but the patient’s still sick, and we’re still using the same old old things that only get them so far. So it’s exciting for us to partner with you guys and bring this to our patients and help them actually get better for the first time in some of these cases, 10 or 15 or more years, you know?

Bruce Patterson 32:35
Yeah. So it’s really exciting. And I’m so glad that we can collaborate on this and obviously, coming from the Midwest. You know, I’m, you know, we’re, we’re a whole world tick crazy. You know, every time we see one, we’re like, oh, lyme! exactly, exactly. But I do think, you know, having an approach to post Lyme and, and now actually having data and data that we can put through machine learning and AI to help drive Therapeutics is absolutely critical. You know, I mean, like I said, we got, we got to think, like, like the cancer, like the oncologist. Yeah. We’re not gonna do anything that’s not driven by data. That’s where we are.

Debra Muth 33:23
Yeah. And that’ll guide a lot of treatment and save time, money, energy and heartache. Like some of these patients we’ve treated, haven’t worked in 15 years, you know, they’re on disability, their lives have been totally taken away from them. They’ve lost everything trying to get better. That shouldn’t be in medicine. It just shouldn’t be.

Bruce Patterson 33:42
The other side of it are the patients who have spent $100,000 got nowhere. So I’m it we’re jumping on these fad bandwagons like, you know, monoclonal antibodies and long COVID, apheresis , you know, through auto antibodies. You know, there’s a few people who do have auto antibodies, but it’s certainly not, you know, it’s not everybody. So, yeah, it’s, um, you know, it’s got to be data driven, it’s got to be science driven. And, you know, that’s what we’re trying to bring to the table in, essentially, infectious diseases is, you know, what we’re doing in cancer. And by the same token, you’re able to manipulate the immune system. We’re doing cancer to make it directed towards what we want to direct. Yeah. And keep it from from damaging what we don’t want it to damage.

Debra Muth 34:36
And then you have objective markers, you can follow along the way and see if what you’re doing is working or not, or if you need to change the path. It’s so nice when you can test in that guess what you’re doing is actually working.

Bruce Patterson 34:50
And when you have a condition, like long COVID Where you know, the reports are that there’s 215 different symptoms. You can imagine if if you tried to treat just based on interviews with the patients, you know, and without a non subjective, you know means to do that it would be, it would be very difficult.

Debra Muth 35:11
Yeah, it would be tough. How do people Excuse me? How do people get in touch with IncellDX to get testing? If they’re listening to us from around the country? How do they get in touch with you and work with you guys?

Bruce Patterson 35:24
Yeah, so IncellDX has created a website, http://www.COVIDlonghaulers.com Which, at some, some point we’re going to switch to a new brand that we’re using internationally in that we’re using for our, our, our watch and our app, to monitor symptoms. And I mean, to record symptoms into, you know, monitor vitals to, you know, you know, immunotrack.org. But, and we’re revising our website to reflect that, but for right now, http://www.COVIDlonghaulers.com There will be checkboxes if your post Lyme if you’re MECFS, etc. So, you know, it’s just a general it’s a general way to get into our system, and then that activates, how to get tested. Once the testing comes back that’s uploaded to the EMR. They scheduled telemedicine, the telemedicine is usually with the PCPs or primary care physicians, we write notes to making our recommendations to primary care physicians, and then the primary care physicians, write the prescriptions and monitor the patients. I mean, it’s really a great system empowers the patient powers, their treating physicians because they’re armed with new information and a path forward. And, you know, we have probably 150 Plus physicians nationwide who part of our network take part in our webinars and other opportunities for education. And so, you know, the system has been working great. And we just this week in the EU, and soon in the UK, so we’re bringing our program global.

Debra Muth 37:18
Awesome, that is great. Have you had much of a problem with primary care physicians jumping on board to help these patients are have they’ve been pretty open. t

Bruce Patterson 37:27
They’ve been pretty open, I would say, you know, 85 to 90% of them are pretty open. The ones that are we try to educate and, you know, if they’re still reticent, we’ll make recommendations on physicians within our network who, who know why we do things, what we do have read our publications who have looked at the data have seen, you know, the patients get better firsthand. And I think, you know, we make those recommendations if need be. But for the most part, we continue to grow our physicians network through interacting with the PCPs. And, and I think that makes everything better.

Debra Muth 38:10
That’s awesome. I’m glad to hear that. So I want to be cognizant of your time, because I know you’re so busy. Any last words you want to share with our audience and our listeners today?

Bruce Patterson 38:18
No, I want to share, you know, I want to share the hope. Because when we started this, in at least did the first analysis of the data in the summer of 2020. And found that long COVID was completely different immunologically than acute COVID. And a distinct entity, and something that was very, very real. And a patient base that was being ghosted, and ignored and told that it was psychiatric or PTSD after having COVID. For me, to get from there to here has been very, very gratifying. But the thing that we gave people in the summer of 2020 was hope. Yeah, we said, you have something very, very real, you have something that is very abnormal. And we have something that that we think we can treat. And here we are sitting, you know, 15 months later, treating it successfully, and giving people their lives back. And I think that’s, that’s what’s critical.

Debra Muth 39:23
That’s awesome. You know, it takes the fear out of getting COVID If we know we have these treatment options available, because that’s the fear is that there’s nothing we can do to make ourselves better or survive. And it couldn’t be farther from the truth. We just have to be willing to try different things. So thank you for doing this. I mean, thank you for doing the research and finding this because you are changing so many people’s lives, and we needed someone like you to step up and do this. So thank you so much.

Bruce Patterson 39:51
Pleasure and really enjoyed our program and we look forward to collaborating with you guys.

Debra Muth 39:57
Yeah, you too. Thanks so much for being with us. Okay, have a great day. You too. Bye bye.

Debra Muth 40:04
So there you guys have it. That is Dr. Bruce Patterson, one of the most innovative people that I have talked to on this front for a very long time. In the chronic illness world, whether it be COVID, or Lyme, or fibromyalgia, I am so excited to be working with him and bringing this to the people. So that like, like he said, patients have power to control how they are treated, what their conditions are like. And we now have new innovative treatment options to bring to chronic illness. I spoke with him for the first time last week. And we’re working with a patient of ours with him. And it was so exciting to be able to see that maybe there’s some hope for this person who’s been sick for so long and hasn’t been able to get where they wanted to go. And it really took my mind to a different place. Because I started thinking about how many people I have encountered over the last 25 years of my career, who have been ill that we knew there were cytokine issues with. And we’ve tried everything we knew to try and couldn’t get things where we wanted to, you know, they get a little bit better, but then they’d not go forward and get a little bit better and not go forward. And to be able to have a test where we can actually measure what the treatment we’re giving is actually doing is so freaking amazing. I mean, this is what we’ve been looking for in the Lyme world and in the chronic illness world for decades. And to be able to apply this technology and help people has just really opened up my heart. And I can’t wait to start implementing his testing and his treatment protocols. And start really impacting lives from a different level and a different angle than we ever have before. So I really hope this guest brought you exactly that which was hope and excitement for the future of medicine and the future of your own health. Because we have always told patients don’t ever give up, things are changing all the time. New things are coming to the forefront every single day, there will be a change, there will be something new we can try. Don’t ever give up. And that’s that’s what the message that I want to leave with you guys today is don’t ever give up. Keep looking, keep searching. keep finding those people that can be in your corner that can bring you new technologies and new methods and new ways of doing things to regain your health regardless of what your health condition is. If it’s fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, chronic Lyme chronic long hollers it doesn’t matter what disease it is, don’t ever give up. Just keep fighting, keep looking for the answers and keep talking to people because you never know who you’re going to make a connection with. That can give you the missing link that you’ve been looking for. So I really hope this has been a great episode for you guys. If it has impacted you and you think it will impact somebody else. Please share it like us, leave us a message. We love to bring you information that you want to hear about. So please share and keep us on this the radio show here and keep us moving forward with our messages. So thank you guys for listening. Thank you for being part of my community. I love surrounding myself with you guys. You are great listeners. And I hope you have a fantastic day.

Debra Muth 43:38
Hey, it has been really great sharing this time with you guys on the let’s talk wellness now podcast. If this episode has helped you or you feel as though this episode would help someone else we’d love for you to leave us a review, share this podcast and if you don’t want to miss the most exciting episodes we have coming. We’d love for you to subscribe to our podcast on iTunes or Google Play. Until next time, live every day to the fullest

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