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Dr. Deb Muth 0:03
Welcome back to let’s Talk Wellness. Now, I’m your host, Dr. Deb. If you’re a woman who’s doing everything right, eating clean, exercising, taking supplements, yet you still feel exhausted, inflamed, or like your body suddenly stopped cooperating, this episode is for you. Today’s conversation challenges one of the biggest myths in women’s health. That midlife struggles are just about hormones or worse, just part of aging. My guest today is Dr. Deb Heald, a naturopathic physician with one of the most fascinating backgrounds I’ve ever encountered. Yeah, she’s got a really diverse background, which is kind of exciting. She’s been an ER nurse, a stockbroker, a Silicon Valley data analysis, teaching machines to learn from microbiome research. And yes, she holds an mba, too. But it was her own menopause crash that changed everything. When the protocols she had been teaching stopped working for her, her, she didn’t double down on templates or trends. She did what she was trained to do. She followed the data and what she discovered reframed menopause, metabolism and women’s longevity in a completely different way. This isn’t about willpower. It’s not about another diet, and it’s definitely not about copying what worked for someone else. It’s about learning to listen to your body and finally understanding what it’s been trying to tell you and all along. So grab your cup of coffee or tea, settle in, and let’s dive into this amazing conversation about women’s health and menopause. And right after our guest is arriving with us, we’re going to get a word from our sponsor quick here. And then we are going to come right back to having this conversation with Dr. Deb Heald. Ladies, it’s time to reignite your vitality. Primal Queen supplements are clean, powerful formulas made for women like you who want balance, strength, and energy that lasts. Get 25% off@primal queen.com Serenity Health. Because every queen deserves to feel in her prime. But okay. All right. Welcome back, everybody. I am here with my new friend, Dr. Deb Heald. And she has such an amazing background, like I shared with you a few minutes ago. But I would love for her to give us her insight in how she got where she did, because it’s rare that you find somebody with a data background and a medical background. So, Dr. Dove, welcome.
Dr Deb Heald 2:30
Thank you. I am so glad to be here, and it’s a real privilege to meet you.
Dr. Deb Muth 2:34
I feel the same way.
Dr Deb Heald 2:35
Yeah, it’s. I think that the more of us that start to think and practice this way, the easier it’s going to be for women going forward. Because it’s not easy.
Dr. Deb Muth 2:44
It is not easy. I mean, I’ve been in this industry a long time, over 25 years. And every time I think it’s getting easy, it’s getting harder for a variety of reasons. It’s the medical system, it’s the. The clients we work with are sicker. It’s taking longer to get them to a place where they feel good. There’s just so many variables these days. So tell me a little bit about what got you here.
Dr Deb Heald 3:06
Well, I made the decision when I was graduating from high school to be a nurse instead of a teacher, because those were really still the two options that were common for women. I thought about medicine at that point, but my sister convinced me that if I would spend all that time learning and practicing medicine, I might not be as good of a mom. So I took the path of nurse, because nurse works around kids schedules and that sort of thing. I’d only been practicing about six months before I thought, oh my gosh, there has to be more to it than this, and toyed with the idea of starting med school at that point, but then married and started having children, and I just sort of fell into that pattern. But I typically work emergency room. There was a short stent in the post anesthesia recovery room as well. And emergency room was a place where western medicine actually shone. Right. People come in, they are no longer capable of functioning, they’re having a heart attack, they lost limb. Whatever else, they do need the, the bells and the whistles of western medicine. But when you think about it, western medicine was derived out of the Civil War where you didn’t have to say what’s the cause of the problem. It was a bullet or a bayonet, and it was, it was about patching up the soldiers and getting them back on the front line so they could continue to fight. And naturopathic medicine, which had been a lot around for an awful lot longer than that, just didn’t work in the battlefield then. The assessment was done in the early 1900s as to which style of medicine got people back to work faster. The Flexner report was all about how corporations could maximize the value of employees. And naturopathic medicine didn’t win because nutritional fixes take a long time. Taking away somebody’s stress so that they can just function more capably is. It’s a, It’s a big ask, right? So the funding of naturopathic medicine went away and western medicine became all that we knew. So in context to the emergency room, it worked. But when I saw the same person coming in, having their third heart attack, I just thought, how is this happening? Has no one told this person what, what’s going on in their lifestyle that’s creating this environment for them to continue to have heart attacks? And so that’s when I made the switch. And that was after 17 years in practice as a nurse to head on over to the naturopathic side. There was a little bit of a, a segue there, but we’d need a much longer interview to get into the details of that. I was a stock broker for six years. Anyway, when I jumped into the idea of med school, it didn’t make sense to be practicing the same thing that was already being practiced because I saw where it worked and I saw where it was failing. So hopped into the naturopathic tract. I also had one child that had a lot of physical and emotional ailments that western medicine couldn’t solve. Their answer to everything was putting her on amoxicillin. And I, I just absolutely could not convince the medical system that she didn’t have a deficiency of antibiotics, but that was their only solution. And so while she was on the antibiotics, her sinuses were clear, her sleep apnea was not an issue, and she appeared better, but her microbiome got decimated. She was on antibiotics for seven years. So, yeah, so my pursuit down the naturopathic pathway was in large part to try and figure out what else could be done for my daughter. And I did take her to a naturopath or I embarked on the field myself. And her GP threatened to call social services. Oh my gosh, yes.
Dr. Deb Muth 6:22
You hear these stories, I’ve heard these stories from clients before over really dumb things that they’re going to call CPS for. And it always blows my mind that we think it’s appropriate to call CPS on somebody who’s truly not injuring their child.
Dr Deb Heald 6:38
So anyway, that started my 17 year path in the naturopathic realm. And after, after I’ve been in practice about 10 years, an opportunity came up to move to Silicon Valley and research the microbiome and then take what we were learning from the microbiome and program it into AI. So I did that for a few years and it was amazing. There was a huge disconnect between the funding model and what its expectations were and what the research was able to do. There was a time gap, there was a funding gap. And so I thought, medicine doesn’t understand what’s important to business. And Business isn’t understanding what’s critical to research. So I went and did my MBA and wanted to be able to be the translator between those two worlds. And then the pandemic hit and then.
Dr. Deb Muth 7:24
Everyone’S life got turned upside down, right?
Dr Deb Heald 7:26
Yeah. Yeah. So I’m back in private practice. My, my practice always tended to be more autoimmune focused, which is predominantly women and predominantly middle aged women. But through my own experience of menopause and looking at how I assisted people that were in menopause before I was, you know, that the success rate wasn’t as high as it needed to be. And I started to really drill down into the biochemistry behind what was going on and then also realized that my menopause was very different than even my sister’s menopause. There we were, the same genetic template, the same lived environment, though very different lived experiences in that environment. And realized that we have to find ways to make it relevant to the person in front of us. And it’s not so much which herbs will or won’t work historically, it’s how is this person’s body responding in the immediate term to the diet we’ve put them on, to the nutritional plan we’ve suggested to the supplements, and because we’ve come so far in the data world, our whoop straps or aura rings or whatever else, there’s so many devices that are actually able to let us know whether somebody’s burning carbs or fat in this moment or ketones. We can see how an individual’s body is responding and course correct right now. And it isn’t that a ketogenic diet may not be helpful down the road. It’s right now it’s actually putting more stress on your body than it’s already under, which puts you into fight flight, which stops you from burning fat. So, and it’s not just the burning fat, it’s the inflammation. Right. So our food is completely void of nutrients. And we used to have 24 inches of topsoil, now we’ve got, so who’s eating four times the number of vegetables that we, we used to eat to get the same number of nutrients? We’re just not. And our environment is so full of plastic and chlorine molecules and just toxins that our liver says, I have no idea what that is, I have no idea how to detoxify it. And we can’t, we can’t clean the air around us. We can put air filters in our homes and try not to live under pulp mills. But the world is just becoming a Much more aggressive place to live.
Dr. Deb Muth 9:33
So it definitely is. I mean from the time that you and I grew up to the time that we have now, we have over 75,000 new chemical in just that short period of time. And honestly, as you and I both know, these chemicals have never been tested for this long term use or the way we’re using it, or how much we’re using them or exposing them to our kids that’s never been tested to see how safe they truly are.
Dr Deb Heald 10:01
I have to apologize to my children and all of the children of that generation. We use latex baby bottles that were plastic line and we linked them up in the microwave. So the wave of endocrine disruption that’s coming at us from practice feeding our infants plastic, it’s a different world. And so we have to approach it just in a completely different way. And you know, menopause shouldn’t be a disease or a state of dis ease, but it is because we’re so depleted. And women used to have predictable stresses and now because most of us are working outside of the home, many are have children that have, how do I want to put this confounders. The number of kids that are neurodiverse and the, the ext work that that creates in a household is unbelievable. So moms typically carrying most of that and then all the guilt that goes with it because moms do guilt, our nervous systems are completely fry, right? So we’re in a constant state of low level fight flight and it changes every single other biochemical process in our body. So when we hit the hormone depletion of menopause, every organ system is profoundly affected. And then we do see more autoimmune diseases cropping up. We do see more inflammatory conditions turning into organ systems not working. And the medical system is. I don’t, I hate to say this, but it’s decades from being able to figure this out. So in the immediate term, what can we do for every woman out there and, and help surround them with community? That’s the other thing that’s really missing. How often do we go next door and have tea or coffee with our neighbors?
Dr. Deb Muth 11:41
You don’t anymore?
Dr Deb Heald 11:42
No. So where’s the community supporting you?
Dr. Deb Muth 11:45
You don’t have one unless it’s online. And then if it’s online, you know how that goes. You can have some support and you can have not support and you can have people be really rude to you. But that support is not the same as having the neighbor next door that you can call on that you can go over and just get out of your house for a few moments and have somebody truly support you. And, and I think back in the day that’s what women did, women supported women. And today there’s so much competition that women are no longer supporting each other. We’re many times tearing women down and judging them and accusing them of doing things that aren’t right for their career, their family, their husband, their this, their that. It could go any way or any shape, but we’ve stopped supporting women in the decisions that they make, whether it’s to be at home or to work or do both or to not have children or to have children. We were just chatting earlier before we came on about having children late in life. That support is completely gone, at least from what I’ve been seeing and hearing, hearing in my practice and what I’m seeing around me.
Dr Deb Heald 12:48
So another form of depletion. Right. So right. Deplete. Our, our society is. And it’s a wonder we’re upright at all. And all of the other pressures that we take on. We’ve just come through the holiday season and having to have the holidays just so, so that everybody else thinks we’re doing a good job. So our family is enjoying themselves at the cost of our sanity. And the shame that goes with feeling like you’re not enough.
Dr. Deb Muth 13:14
Yeah. And for your family and your kids to just be like, I don’. Time to come, I don’t have time to do this. I, I hear this every day. You know, families that women mostly that are creating these beautiful experiences for their kids and their relatives. And then at the last minute you have one that calls and says I can’t come and another one that calls and says I have to go to my in laws or I have to go here, I have to go there. And then again we go back to this guilt of what did I do wrong as a woman, as a mother, to not have everybody be with me for the holidays. And I’ve worked so hard to create this environment, beautiful experience for them, for nobody to care but me.
Dr Deb Heald 13:53
Yes.
Dr. Deb Muth 13:53
And then that just depletes us more.
Dr Deb Heald 13:55
So, and then, and then you hit the, your breaking point and you go see your doctor who first of all doesn’t, doesn’t have the time. And I, I can’t call doctors practicing in the world today because you might be scheduled for 15 minutes, but they’re running late. I, I knew a physician quite well who in the wintertime was so busy in Canada with cold and flus, he’d see a hundred people a day. Yeah. So Sitting in front of him, trying to say, so devastated inside because of this happening or that happening. They, they don’t have or take the time to address what’s really going on there. So the number of times people say to me, you’re the first person that has actually sat and listened to me.
Dr. Deb Muth 14:36
And yeah, I get that same thing. And that’s, that’s part of what natural medicine is. How do you get to know somebody and understand what’s happening to them if you don’t hear their stories?
Dr Deb Heald 14:45
Agreed. So it’s, it’s a tricky world for women to navigate, so we have to be here for each other. And where I’m sitting right now in practice is literally just helping women replete themselves and looking at the different organ systems or the organelles within the systems that, that being supplied with what they need. And where do we start with this woman? You know, it’s not everybody that needs to have their GI tract optimized first, though. That’s a pretty common one for a lot of women that feel like they’re going out of their minds. We have to start with brain. But everything we do to, to make the environment better for the brain function also makes everything better for the cardiac function and the muscle function. But it’s, it’s just so misunderstood. And then when we get into the, the metabolism, which is where most women end up coming in, is, why am I gaining weight? Right. And so the weight is the physical manifestation that finally breaks them. But what caused them to be gaining weight is also impacting their brain and their heart and their liver and their, their entire system. It’s just, that’s the thing that finally made them come and get help. But when we look at how metabolism comes to a screeching halt in menopause, it’s a wonder that we can carry on at all.
Dr. Deb Muth 16:00
Yeah. So at what age do you think women should start paying attention to their situation, to their data, and not just their symptoms?
Dr Deb Heald 16:08
30 way, way, way before you hit menopause, let’s have a strong baseline. Let’s see what’s happening in your early adult life that is putting you into a state that right now you’ve got the tolerance to fix, but over a longer period of time is going to lead to inflammation and dysfunction. And I’m seeing my nieces actually start to pay attention and my daughter to, to their health in a different way. And I think the wearables have a huge amount to do with that. Right. So if you went out last night and celebrated and you’re paying any Attention to a recovery score. And you see that that fourth tequila took three days for you to recover from. Maybe next time don’t have four. Yeah, right.
Dr. Deb Muth 16:58
One or two, Right? Yeah.
Dr Deb Heald 17:00
Yeah. Lack of sleep. How does that actually impact you? For how many days? Something that is not. Not the best choice, though. If you’re eating well, 80% of the time, you’re way ahead of the curve. But when you. When you eat something that upsets your system, you can know that right now, literally, if you’re watching heart rate and you eat something that’s inflammatory to you, your heart rate will go up by six or seven beats a minute almost immediately. And that’s a little thing saying your immune system just kicked in. Is this the right thing for you to eat? So the. The more people pay attention without obsessing, and especially on the food thing, I don’t want to create disordered eating for people, but getting to know your body, getting to know its tolerance, and then as women start to have children, how did those tolerances change? Well, they’ll change profoundly because your sleep just disappeared. Yeah, right. If nothing.
Dr. Deb Muth 17:54
And your hormones changed and everything else is different. And I think that’s a really great point about the wearables. Like, people can get really obsessed with that data, but I don’t think people really understand how to use the data appropriately. You know, like, if you’re eating something that you don’t normally eat or you’re eating something that you know is somewhat inflammatory, you know, it’s the holidays. I’m gonna have some chips. I’m gonna have, you know, some cheese. I’m gonna have some nuts. I’m gonna have a variety of things. That’s really where you want to check your data, right? You know, your. You’re doing something that’s outside of the norm. And we all kind of know, like, I’m puffier, I’m swollen, my brain’s a little foggy. Maybe I have more pain. That’s the time you really want to tune in and say what’s happening? And then start tracking that. Draw the line so that, you know, like, this is the food that bothers me. Because sometimes it can be a healthy food. It doesn’t always have to be a bad food. You know, it can be a healthy food. I have patients that are allergic to lettuce, and they wonder why they’re gaining weight when they’re dieting, and all they’re doing is eating salad. Salads, and you find out they have an allergy to lettuce, and they take that out and their weight goes right back to normal. So it doesn’t have to necessarily always be a bad thing. But using that data appropriately could really make a huge difference.
Dr Deb Heald 19:07
And making informed choices.
Dr. Deb Muth 19:08
Yeah.
Dr Deb Heald 19:09
I was born with a dairy allergy. One of the proteins in milk. And so, and gosh, in the, in the early 60s there weren’t options for formulas that weren’t dairy based. So I was raised on evaporated milk because the heating process in evaporating the, the fluid out of the milk broke down this particular protein. So how I don’t have diabetes, I do not know. But I will elect sometimes to eat Manchego cheese and I know that tomorrow I’m going to pay for it. But I’m making an informed decision today to do it or I’m making an informed decision today. Not. Yeah, right. And so giving people the power, I think the data is power when you know how to use it. And so when women have pregnancies later in their reproductive cycle, seeing how fast that pregnancy taxation on hormones and then the, when the pregnancy concludes and the hormones fall through the floor, I have seen so many women whose ovaries never recover, they start perimenopause literally in that postpartum period. And so knowing that and making sure that you are getting, you know, the sleep that you need, making sleep kind of your, your one non negotiable. There are other things that you’ll sacrifice instead. But maybe sleep’s the most important thing to you or maybe your, your nutrition’s the most important thing. And the wearables will help you determine where you’ve got that play and where you don’t. And so making sure at a much younger age that you’re building muscle mass. We get a lot away for a really long time with being skinny fat. So we look little and everybody assumes, we assume that we’re in shape, but we’re not consciously developing the muscle mass. And for women that’s critical because when our hormones turn off and our metabolism slows down for all of the reasons that it does, the only thing that’s going to drive your metabolism in a non estrogen environment are chemicals that made in muscles. And without the muscle mass, your metabolism will stay slow. Without the muscle mass, you’re not going to have the strength to prevent falls. So if you think at 55 you can start to build muscles, it’s a really big ask.
Dr. Deb Muth 21:26
Yeah, it’s tough.
Dr Deb Heald 21:28
And testosterone is the hormone that we need to build muscle mass. And through menopause and postmenopausally most of our Testosterone is getting converted to estrogen. So starting at that point, it’s just too late. So once again, let’s go back to the 30 year old and what are you doing on a regular basis to build and maintain muscle?
Dr. Deb Muth 21:49
Yeah, when you’re in your prime is when we should be looking at these things. We shouldn’t be waiting until our health and our life age is declining to all of a sudden say, okay, now I’ve got to biohack my way back to being 30 at 50 or 60, because A, it’s much harder to do and B, for a lot of women you don’t ever do it correctly and so you’re trying to mimic that time frame, but it’s, it’s a major challenge for sure.
Dr Deb Heald 22:15
And then back to these kids that we fed plastic from day one. What are their menopause is going to be like? Because the, all that plastic will disrupt their estrogen receptors and we don’t know what impact it’s having on ovaries directly. The stronger that they can be, the more nourished they can be before their menopause starts, the further ahead they’re going to be. So this isn’t, it’s not just really targeting women that are 45 and older. It’s literally all women really need to be taking it into their own hands because the medical system, like I said so far, is not. And I’m not sure when they will. But we don’t have to wait for the medical system. There are things we can do every single day that are going to help us stay in control of our, our health. I can tell you that. Health span.
Dr. Deb Muth 23:02
Health span, Correct. And I, I see a lot of young people and there is maybe one out of ten of the young people that I see that have normal hormone levels for their age. I start testing hormones on young women and men around 20, unless there’s a need to do it sooner. But I want to see what they are at their peak. And I have men, young men in their 20s and 30s that have a testosterone level of 100 to 300, when they should be closer to 800, 900. I have young women who can’t peak an estrogen above 50 at 20, when in mid cycle when they should be closer to 100, 150, they’re making no progesterone, they’re making minimal to no testosterone for women. And so when we ask what has this environment done to those young women and men that we have, it’s completely destroyed their hormonal function. They are not at peace and then we wonder why they sit around and have no motivation or drive. I have young men in their 20s with no sex drive. They’re just kind of asexual beings. They don’t even look at a woman and get excited. Women don’t look at men and get excited. There’s none of that that’s happening because they’re lacking these hormones that allow them to do that. And then we wonder what is that going to do to them at menopause? Well, what is it doing to them now? You know, it is creating damage. Those hormones are necessary for cognitive function and bone health and cardiovascular health and all of that. And we’re not asking the right questions, I’m afraid.
Dr Deb Heald 24:29
Yeah. And, and even if we can see that the gonads are producing the hormones, what’s going on on the cellular membrane level with all those pollutants that the cell can’t absorb them?
Dr. Deb Muth 24:43
Right.
Dr Deb Heald 24:43
So anyway. What a mess.
Dr. Deb Muth 24:45
Yeah, it is.
Dr Deb Heald 24:45
And, and here’s the thing is it boils down to the naturopathic principles. Improve food, how can we improve sleep, how can we help people manage stress more effectively and, and encourage people to be exercising. I mean, this stuff is gold. Yeah.
Dr. Deb Muth 25:01
And it’s things that you could do very simply. We don’t, you don’t need to build a, you know, ten thousand dollar gym in your basement to do this. There are ways that you can do this very easily for no cost at home. You just need to get the motivation and the drive and understand how to do it.
Dr Deb Heald 25:17
Yes. And with the resistance bands that are absolutely available everywhere, even if you’re traveling, you can throw a band in your suitcase and do just the tiniest little bit of muscle reinforcement while you’re away.
Dr. Deb Muth 25:32
It’s so much simpler than we think. We make it very complicated.
Dr Deb Heald 25:35
But then also the thing that’s missing when you’re doing it at home can be that motivation. So how do we make this important enough that it’s, it is non negotiable for people? They wake up and they do, they woke, woke up a little bit late. So today Maybe they do 10 minutes, not 20, but just be doing something. Right.
Dr. Deb Muth 25:54
Yeah. You got to get moving it, you know, sitting around on the couch isn’t moving. You know, you have to get up, you have to move. Even if you’re sitting at your desk and you get a little bike thing underneath your desk that you can put into pedal, you know, you’re moving. It’s not weight bearing, but you’re moving. And that weight bearing exercise is so important to Us.
Dr Deb Heald 26:17
How does this become something that’s sexy?
Dr. Deb Muth 26:21
Yeah, that’s what we need to make it right.
Dr Deb Heald 26:24
Yes. Even, even in the realm of food, when people decide to go onto an exclusionary eating plan, so they’re, they’re going to go keto. So excluding anything that is carbohydrate based in their diet, there are a few people healthy enough to do that and they generally can do it healthfully for a short period of time. But to stay on that type of diet for a long time, that’s where I love the wearables. It’s sort of like the same thing when people are vegetarian or vegan, it’s very, very hard. It has to be a very conscious process to stay healthy as a vegetarian or a vegan. Because your liver has so many things to do. It has 500 functions that it carries on at all moments every day. And when you eliminate animal protein, you’re now also asking it to manufacture other protein and amino acid sequences on top of everything else it’s going to do. So when you make a decision like that, what are you going to eliminate from your world to take some of the burden off of your liver so it has the capacity to do extra work and you have to do these negotiations or you just end up being depleted. But the communities that are vegetarian or vegan to a greater degree and keto to a greater degree have support. You can join all sorts of online groups for people that are following these restrictive type of diet. Being an omnivore, which is eating not bread but carbohydrate in the form of vegetables and fruits, and getting some animal protein, some plant based protein, healthy fats, not the processed fats. There’s no support group for being an omnivore.
Dr. Deb Muth 28:05
No, there’s that.
Dr Deb Heald 28:07
So it isn’t one that people are going to opt into necessarily. Because who’s going to support you through your healthy eating choices?
Dr. Deb Muth 28:15
What are some of the biggest advancements you’re seeing right now in whole body healing that actually move the needle for us that just aren’t fancy trends but actually work?
Dr Deb Heald 28:25
It’s back to that individual monitoring of what’s going on. So for women that want to lose weight and go on a calorie restricted or carbohydrate restricted diet and they are deciding that they’re going to exercise at the same time. If you are in a rested state, when you go to sleep, your body will burn from fat. In the rested state, if you’re in a stressed state, it needs carbohydrate, it needs Instant energy, right? To. To break down fat into a usable fuel. Takes the liver about eight steps to burn carbohydrate. It’s instant. So when you’re stressed, you’ll burn carbs. When you’re resting or relaxed, you’ll burn fat. But if somebody goes to bed in a stressed state, they opened an email that annoyed them. They are wondering why their child came home late again. Whatever. You go to bed in a stress state, you’ll burn carbs all night long. You wake up in the morning already in a stress state. You decide you’re going to exercise in a fasted state because somehow it got imprinted in our head that you’re supposed to be fasting when you exercise to get the best benefit, and you decide to do intervals, which are a huge stress on your body, an intentional stress on your body. You’re already stressed. Stress. How much fat are you going to burn in that process? None. None.
Dr. Deb Muth 29:45
And you don’t have any carbs left to burn.
Dr Deb Heald 29:48
Right. So guess what you burn now? Muscle.
Dr. Deb Muth 29:50
Muscle.
Dr Deb Heald 29:51
So here we are working out to try and build muscle, but instead we’re breaking muscle down. So if people can use the biometric data to say, I’m in a stress state, and I know that because my heart rate is higher, or I’m using a device that can actually show how much carbon dioxide I’m exhaling. So if you’re exhaling a lot of carbon dioxide, it means you’re burning carbs. You don’t exhale carbon. You don’t need to exhale carbon dioxide if you’re burning fat as your energy store, it’s not a byproduct of fat. So if you’re already in a stress state, you can either change the type of exercise that you want to do today, so doing more of an endurance exercise, or you can eat and then do your concept.
Dr. Deb Muth 30:31
What.
Dr Deb Heald 30:32
So that’s where I’m seeing the improvement is when people are actually starting to collect their data and I interpret it for them until they can start to make those. Those correlations themselves. What. What do I need to eat right now? What do I need? What type of exercise do I need to do right now? And in everybody’s day, there is an ideal time for them to eat carbs. But for a great number of women through Perry and postmenopause that eat carbohydrates, in the evening, they get these big sugar spikes or from eating the carbs, blood sugar. And then about the time they’re going to bed, maybe an hour or two after they go to bed, their blood sugar drops and their body thinks, oh my gosh, we’re starving and it goes into a stressed state. So all night long from that point on, they’re breaking down muscle to create carbohydrate energy so that their stress system can be satisfied that they’re not starving to death. So it’s, it’s not that they can’t eat carbs, it’s that eating them in the evening is putting their body into a stressed state. But at lunchtime it might be fine. And it isn’t even eliminating every single simple carbohydrate or every, I’m going to say treat. We are a reward based society, so the treats are a thing. But maybe it means that if you want to have something sweet after a meal, you do that at lunch and your data will tell you, personally, I would eat, I’m going to call it healthy snacks in the evening mostly because I was bored, certainly not because I was in a starvation state and I started paying attention to my own data and I don’t snack in the evening anymore because it throws my sleep completely off track and it puts me into that stressed, burning carbs all night state. And it’s completely contradictory to my health plan going forward. My parents were, my dad was very long lived, he lived to 93. My mom passed at 84. But I have to say I don’t want the last 15 years of life that either of them had. Just. Yeah, at one point I think my mom thought the family vehicle had flashing red lights on the top of it because she was in an ambulance so often. So I don’t want that. And if I’m doing something that on a routine basis, this is confounding my plan for health span, I have to revisit that. I have to say to myself, you said that you’re, you know, maintaining your health is more important than maintaining your length of life. Look at what you’re doing to your body every single time you eat in the evening.
Dr. Deb Muth 33:08
If you had to choose one data point that really made the difference for people with a wearable or a device that completely changed how you understood menopause and all of this eating pattern, what would it be through the, through the data lens?
Dr Deb Heald 33:22
Heart rate variability. Yeah. And so that’s. And certain devices, well, a lot of devices measure it. Some of them are more meticulous with what time frame they’re capturing the variation in heart rate. And I guess for the listeners, we should talk about what heart rate variability is. If your heart rate is beating 72 times a minute, which used to be considered the norm. If you’re in a stressed state, if your sympathetic nervous system or your adrenaline nervous system is driving the bus, every single heartbeat in that minute will be the exact same distance between the beats. When you’re in a relaxed state, it still might be beating at 72 times a minute, but one beat might come a little bit earlier, the next one a little bit later, and there’s more variation between the time between the heartbeats. And that shows that you’re in a relaxed or adapting state. When we’re in fight flight, we’ve got one mission and that’s just staying alive. When we’re in that rest digest, it’s like if it’s a little bit slow, it doesn’t matter because I’ll just speed the next one up. And we’ve got the ability to adapt second to second. So if we are measuring heart rate variability in somebody and in it’s low, it means that they’re in that stressed nervous system state more of the time. And it causes you to burn carb more often than fat, even though fat’s a much better energy store. And the byproducts of carbohydrate combustion cause free radical stress to our body oxidation and inflame organ systems. So the more time we can spend not in fighting flight, the more healthy we will be. And so if you’re using some devices, they’re measuring your heart rate variability through a 24 hour period. So when you are in the peak of your stressed state, your heart rate variability will be little. And then when you’re in a relaxed state, it will be more. And on a 24 hour scale, it looks like you’ve got more heart rate variability. Some of the devices narrow it down to measuring your heart rate variability in the first five minutes after you come out of deep sleep. So there’s way less variability in that number. So the number will be lower than a 24 hour measure, but it’s more accurate. And so I like to, I like to narrow it down to that. But if somebody’s using a device that does it the other way, let’s just compare apples with apples. And so if your heart rate variability is improving, it’s improving.
Dr. Deb Muth 35:58
So that’s awesome. And that’s an easy thing to be able to measure for people.
Dr Deb Heald 36:02
It’s on most watches that are measuring biometrics and it’s definitely on the rings and the bands and all of the things. So just working to improve that. And if you’ve had your heart rate variability at a certain level. And then today it’s much lower. Literally just do that process in your head. What was different about yesterday? Oh, I lost my job or I ate from a buffet or whatever it is. And then the next time it has that same fall, see if the trigger for it correlated. And it’s literally just teaching us to pay attention to when our body’s in a state of stress because we’re so used to it that we don’t know anymore. The body’s screaming at us, but we’ve just become so numb to the changes to our body that we think it’s normal.
Dr. Deb Muth 36:58
Right. Because most of us, let’s realistically are walking out around in a State of Stress 24, 7. The only time you’re at quote, unquote rest is when you’re sleeping, if you’re lucky enough to be doing that. But we think we are because we’re not conscious anymore. And we think our body’s resting, but it may not be.
Dr Deb Heald 37:17
That’s right. So we are in a state of unconsciousness. But if, if we are burning carbohydrate while we’re sleeping, we are not getting into that restorative state, which means your liver is being distracted and isn’t able to do its peak detox at night. Here’s the thing. Our body is supposed to make cholesterol for us between 1am and 4am and if we’re in a stress state, the mechanism that limits the time that the body manufactures cholesterol to those three hours, that mechanism gets turned off. Off. So the body now manufactures cholesterol 24 hours a day. Oops.
Dr. Deb Muth 37:53
We wonder why it’s always high.
Dr Deb Heald 37:55
So, and, and it has everything to do with not getting into restorative sleep. So why are we getting into restorative sleep?
Dr. Deb Muth 38:02
Right. Well, because we’re constantly stressed and we’re not eating properly.
Dr Deb Heald 38:06
There we go. So we’re back to sleep and food and exercise and stress management.
Dr. Deb Muth 38:11
Yeah. Is there an easy way for people to. To pull their data out of their devices that they can look at it as a picture so that they can kind of see maybe the last week or the last two weeks and really start to dig in and see what that data means?
Dr Deb Heald 38:29
Yes. Almost all wearables now have an app attached to them. So when they know where to go to find the data, it will almost always, in an app, pull it up. But what I’m seeing now is almost all the wearables have some type of AI integration where you can literally, on the app, type in, please show Me, my heart rate variability over the last two weeks. And it’ll just populate on the app a graph. What we’re doing with biometric data and the science and the availability of analysis of that data is mind blowing. I think it could be more effective at improving people’s health than anything that we’re going to see happen in a hospital or in a pharmaceutical company’s research lab.
Dr. Deb Muth 39:12
Yeah, I think AI has a lot of great benefits in the medical world like this. Compiling data, looking at data over a period of time. We all know, you and I both, we’ve done research. You know, how long it takes to comb through the research and to find things and to try to put it all together. And when AI can be used to help us hack that in a shorter period of time, we are going to make new discoveries so much faster that are going to help people in ways that we’ve never seen before.
Dr Deb Heald 39:46
It’s the perfect indication for AI. And even when I was working with it back in 2017, oh my gosh, it was just barely an embryo back then. And the whole premise behind it was we still need the, the clinical brains, yes, to point out the relevance of the data, but the AI can take care of all of the mundane stuff that none of us like doing anyway, and it can do it instantaneously. And at this point, we still need the clinicians to show where that’s relevant.
Dr. Deb Muth 40:19
We started using AI this last year to look at our own data. I have data going back almost 25 years of patients that we’ve seen and protocols that we’ve done. And we wanted to see, of all the protocols that we’ve used over the years, which ones actually worked compared to those that didn’t and how much better outcome and how quickly, because we wanted to see, can we make our protocols better and which ones just should we be abandoning that just are not working for the majority of the people. And we started combing our data and it’s been incredible because it’s easy for us, us to, to see the client and think, gosh, this is working, and so I’ll use it on this person and this person and this person. But then you lose sight of those little intricacies of, well, it worked on this person at this age, but it didn’t work on this person who had this or they didn’t have the combination of these two things. And now we’re being able to see all of that so that we can get people better, faster just by simply knowing the data.
Dr Deb Heald 41:20
Well, and it isn’t Even so much protocols that need to be scrubbed. It’s. If you’ve got somebody on a protocol, there’s real time data to say continue or pause. This isn’t the way it should. That’s my least favorite word in the entire language but should be going, so what’s different about this person or what was different about their yesterday that we’re. We’re not seeing what would encourage us to continue. And, and every single individual has different needs at different times. Even, even twins. Right. With the studies are amazing. And when any difference in their environment they manifest completely differently. So it’s not genetics.
Dr. Deb Muth 42:10
No. It’s epigenetics.
Dr Deb Heald 42:11
Right.
Dr. Deb Muth 42:11
It’s our environment that changes our genetics and that is the difference.
Dr Deb Heald 42:17
So looking at the genes is one thing, but looking at somebody’s actual response to an intervention in lifetime. This isn’t blood work that’s going to be done every three months. This is, this is what form of exercise should I do right now or should I eat or not eat before I do it. It’s. I think that’s where medical science to me is the most exciting is literally putting the power back into the hands of the human.
Dr. Deb Muth 42:46
And honestly, from a client perspective, if you don’t learn this and you don’t learn how to hack your day to day stuff, there is nothing that Dr. Heald or myself can really help you with to make you get where you want to go. Like we have the information, we have the knowledge, we can teach you. But you have to be willing to learn this to hack your like life every single day to get to the optimization that you’re looking for. Because trying to depend on somebody like us to tell you what to do every day is unrealistic. It’s just not going to happen.
Dr Deb Heald 43:17
Agreed. Yeah. It’s almost gamifying your health. But if that’s what it takes, let’s do it.
Dr. Deb Muth 43:23
Yeah, why not? Why not have some fun with it.
Dr Deb Heald 43:25
I love waking up and seeing not so much. I can tell by the way I feel how deep my sleep was. My brain’s either foggy or it’s not. Yeah. But I still love looking at the data and then saying, oh, I did do that yesterday. And to me it’s, it’s a game in the morning to open my app and see how yesterday actually manifested in my ability to get rest last night.
Dr. Deb Muth 43:53
Yeah, it’s so true. I, I did some traveling on Tuesday and we have a little snow. The weather was bad. What normally should have taken me four hours to get somewhere took me seven. There was a crash on the freeway. We got diverted and like the entire drive was completely white knuckled. Right. And so by the time I arrived where I needed to go, it was 12:30 in the morning and I was super stressed. I kind of relaxed a little bit and then I went to bed and I woke up the next, I didn’t sleep well. I was up almost all night. I was up till probably four in the morning before I finally fell asleep. And it took me two days to recover from that stressor and, and I laid low and I rested. It was the holiday, it wasn’t a big deal. But when it takes you that like you have to be conscious, it took me two days to bounce back from that. And we have stressors like that that happen maybe not at that magnitude every single day, but if you’re not paying attention to how long it’s taking you to recover, that is a huge disservice. Because what are we going to do as women? We’re going to put push through. Right. We need to take care of the kids, we need to work, we need to take care of our parents, we need to check on this person, we need to do this, we need to do that and we’re just going to keep pushing in that state of stress, not realizing that that’s the last thing that we should be doing.
Dr Deb Heald 45:08
And so there will be non negotiables in that when and which generation where our near adult or adult kids still need us and our parents are, are still needing assistance. Maybe it just means don’t do the intense work up to day move, but just pair it back. Or if your partner suggests inviting the neighbors over for appetizers and drinks like not tonight sweetie. Right. Like literally just drawing the line because you said it. Well, we, we will just push through. Yeah. It’s our future health that we’re sacrificing when we do that. And I do not want to spend my last 15 years sick. I do not want to spend my last, last however many 15 minutes in, in a care facility. Right.
Dr. Deb Muth 45:54
You and me both, we both know how those are. No, that’s a non negotiable for me.
Dr Deb Heald 45:59
Agreed. And so when, when people are thinking, well, I know it matters but I can pay attention to it later or it costs money to do this and I’d rather not spend that money. Let’s just price out what one month in a nursing home is going to cost.
Dr. Deb Muth 46:13
Yeah, you’re going to spend it on the front end or the back end. You get to choose how you’re going to do that and what that’s going to look like for you.
Dr Deb Heald 46:20
So if that’s some wearables and some guidance up front, let’s do it. And my hope is that when we are more aware of what our behaviors do to our physical body, we’ll also start to tune into the physical signs that’s been sending us all the way along. So we don’t have to be dependent on some band on our wrist. But if you eat something that that’s triggering your immune system, you’ll pay attention to the fact your nose is running. You won’t just wipe it and carry on. It’s literally a histamine release unless it’s hot soup. But it’s saying, this is going to inflame you a little bit. Are you okay with that? And when we start to treat our bodies like the temples that they are, we won’t need the wearables. Right? We’ll say, oh, I’m starting to feel tired. So what that means is I’m going to go to bed. I’m not going to turn on a Netflix series. I’m not going to dive into some project for work that I’d like to get off my plate. My body’s asking for rest right now. So let’s do it.
Dr. Deb Muth 47:23
I love that this has been such a great conversation. How can people find you and work with you if they’re interested?
Dr Deb Heald 47:30
I agree. This has been an amazing conversation. I hope that we can do it again. I have a website which is is doctorhealed.com r h E-A-L-D.com I’m on Instagram. That’s Dr. Deb healed. And just direct message me and we will see what we can do.
Dr. Deb Muth 47:48
I love that. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Dr Deb Heald 47:51
Well, thank you for hosting and it was just an amazing, amazing time on this. Yeah. Friday morning.
Dr. Deb Muth 47:58
I agree. Thank you.
Dr Deb Heald 47:59
Okay, take care.
Dr. Deb Muth 48:00
This is the part of our conversation I hope you sit with. Because if there’s one truth that keeps coming up not just in today’s episode, but across thousands of women’s stories, it’s this. The body isn’t broken. You haven’t failed, and you’re not imagining what you’re feeling. You have just been taught to follow templates instead of trust data, to chase fixes instead of understanding function, and to silence symptoms instead of listening to them. My hope is that today’s conversation gave you permission to stop guessing and start getting curious about your body’s needs and how to thrive in this episode. If it resonated with you. Please take a moment to subscribe, follow and share. It was someone who needs to hear it. It means the world to us and it really helps us get in front of the eyes of more people. You can find let’s Talk Wellness now on YouTube, Spotify and wherever you listen to podcasts. And remember, healing doesn’t just start with another diagnosis. It starts when you finally feel seen and empowered to take your health back. Until next time, I’m Dr. Deb and this is let’s Talk Wellness Now.
Dr. Deb Muth 49:08
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